人物访谈(中英) | 方曼: 这时刻,请柔以待人,请联结彼此,请臣服于自然
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1月26日的武汉长江大桥 图片源自新华社
被访者：Man Fang
访谈人：Sabine Letz
编 辑：Damian Harrison
发 表：2020年3月31日
[写在前面]WorkFace柏林定期以个人访谈的形式拓展对话的深度，欢迎驻德华人的加入。本篇访谈是在德国疫情前期IASS对方曼进行的一次个人访谈，因为方曼来自湖北省，全程参与家乡抗疫行动，她从个人的角度阐释了在德国期间对两国抗疫行动差异的观察与感受。
本文对部分访谈内容进行了翻译。
导读：“家”就是中国人的信仰。中国人为了家人和亲朋可以付出任何所有，因为有家就有归处，这个归处象征着“自在”与安宁。这也是为什么全世界华人都要支持ta们的祖国。“自在”和“自由”不一样，自在是在社群里的自由感，这不是原子化的个体的“自由”的概念。
Affiliate IASS scholar Man Fang has been working online from Germany since late January as a volunteer coordinator to support her hometown of Wuhan, organizing donations and helping to transport medical resources from around the world to the local hospitals. Here on the IASS-Blog she answers a few questions how differently the pandemic is dealt with in Germany and China and expresses her thoughts and feelings about it.
1
最重要的学习和领悟
Man, your family lives in Wuhan and has been in domestic quarantine for 50 days - what was the most important learning of the last weeks that you would like to share with us in Europe?
你的家人都住在武汉（湖北）并居家隔离超过50天了，在过去这些日子里，你最重要的学习有哪些，能分享给我们在欧洲的人吗？
Man: The first learning: Trust makes miracles. In my role as a coordinator, I have been surprised at how much trust can develop between people as you work together for two months. Most of the team members did not know each other before, but we have developed an unconditional trust in each other through our work. That made miracles possible in terms of how smoothly and effectively we could drive action.
The second learning is: Collective consensus is crucial. And equally: the irresponsible actions of just one person can easily screw up the security of entire families and communities in the coronavirus crisis.
最重要的三个学习：第一，信任创造奇迹。当我为家乡寻找捐赠物资时，感受到志愿团队成员间无条件的信任，这是我们平稳并有效率行动的重要基础；第二，集体共识是关键，疫情之中，一个人一个不负责的行为就能打破整个家庭、乃至社区的平静，所以，我们面对病毒的态度，必须有集体的共识；
The third learning: Keeping a balance between emotional sensitivity and rationality. Sensitivity makes us aware of what is happening in the world and compassionate with others, while rationality is the power that keeps us calm and lets us take reasonable decisions in chaos. Achieving this balance is difficult. When it comes to issues like food security and the use of facial masks for protection, it can be so hard for us to tell whether we are over-reacting or being ignorant. However, the only consideration we could have for ourselves is how we can help others. Sometimes, this means that we have to make sacrifices around our freedoms and rights; or perhaps we have to reconsider how much food we plan to stockpile or assess the extent to which anxiety and uncertainty are shaping our actions. Ultimately we have to trust that medical professionals and governments are doing the best they can to support us.
第三，理智与情感的平衡。敏感，让我们觉知周遭并对ta人保持共情，然而，理智是让我们保持冷静并在混乱中科学决策的力量。疫情中，保持这样的平衡很难，我们常常没有办法判断，比如购买足量食物和口罩，到怎样的程度我们是过度反应了，或者准备不足。但是，有一个标准确是唯一的，那就是我们需要保护ta人。当我们需要考虑ta人的时候，我们就不得不放弃我们自身的一些自由和权利。比如，我们需要去考虑有多少的食物储备仅仅是出于对不确定的恐慌，我们的行动被那些恐慌塑造了。最终我们仍然不得不选择信任医务人员和政府，相信ta们会尽全力帮助我们走出危机。
3月23日 复工前夕地铁站消杀
2
有关中德的响应速度
You think that Europe has been slow to respond – what should we have done, when and why?
你认为欧洲的响应慢了，那么你认为我们应当什么时候、如何响应，以及为什么？
Man: While my hometown, Wuhan, is starting to recover from the coronavirus crisis, Germany is just entering its lockdown. Living in Germany, I have witnessed an interesting contrast between these two counties. My friends in China started worrying about me in late February already and wanted to know if I need masks to protect myself. On 2nd March and 6th March, two friends of mine separately mailed masks to me from Nice (France) and Shanghai (China). When I told them that governments in Europe were not recommending that people wear masks in public, they were very surprised.
在我的家乡慢慢从新冠疫情中走出来的时候，德国开始封城。现在居住在德国，发现两国差异中很有趣的现象。我的中国朋友们在2月底就开始担心我的状况，于是分别有两位朋友在3月2日和6日分别从法国尼斯与上海为我邮寄了口罩。他们当时都特别的诧异，当得知德国政府并不建议民众戴口罩的时候。
People in China are very aware of how contagious this virus is, of the severity of the symptoms and of the fact that victims die a painful death while being at full consciousness until their very last moments. I decided in early March that I would remain at home as much as possible. While the official figures did not indicate any confirmed infections, the situation was very unclear due to the extended incubation period of the coronavirus, which ranges from 3 to 24 days or even 27 days (Shennongjia adds a new confirmed case of new pneumonia with an incubation period of up to 27 days). Unfortunately people were not made aware of this sooner in Europe.
中国人很早就已经知道了，新冠病人大都以“窒息”却在生命最后一刻都保持着清醒——这种非常可怕的方式去世。于是从3月初起，我基本就不出门了。我从中国的新闻了解到这个病毒的潜伏期大概在3到24天之间，最长的几乎达到了27天，而很可惜的是，这些消息并不为欧洲人所了解。
I feel painful that the lessons of my hometown couldn’t be learned by European. I feel also painful that all Chinese are witnessing the same happenings in Italy now. So many people are suffering from the virus and lots of doctors and nurses are infected because there is not enough protection.
I am glad that people now have a better picture of what is happening in the world. Germany has learned from Italy, its nearby neighbor, and has finally decided to lock down its cities.
我感觉到挺难受的，欧洲人并没有从我家乡的教训里得到经验。我们现在很悲催地看到这些事情正在意大利重演，而许多的医护人员也都因为没有足够的防护被感染。当然，如今值得庆幸的是，全世界的人们都对于正在发生的事情有所觉察，德国也从其邻居意大利那里吸取教训，开始封城控制了。
中百仓储门口的检查
图片源自Economic Times
3
有关隔离与对待老年人的态度
Why is it so important that we all reduce our social contacts to a minimum and simply stay at home? Is there a difference in dealing with elderly people in Europe and China?
为什么尽量减少社交接触是必要的? 欧洲与中国在对待老人方面有什么不同吗？
Man: The trickiest thing about the coronavirus is its invisibility. The virus can be hidden in your body for anything from 3 to 27 days before you develop symptoms. This means that in densely populated areas like Wuhan it might be transmitted to more than 1 000 people before we even know it’s there. This is why the Chinese government advised people very early to wear masks. We assume that everyone could carry the virus with no awareness. It is the only way to avoid further spreading, especially to vulnerable people.
Another crucial aspect to me are elderly people. Culturally speaking, China is a society that affords elderly people the highest respect. There is an old saying that, “An old in a home is like a treasure of a family.” It is unbearable that many people are losing their parents and grandparents all of a sudden. In China most old people live with their children and grandchildren, which could explain why so many people got infected and died. This tragedy has traumatized the people of Hubei Province. People died within 2 to 3 days of developing symptoms and their families didn’t have the chance to say goodbye properly. In some cases, entire families were infected and were unable to support each other because they were isolated in different hospitals, hotels or apartments.
From my point of view, mainstream German society reflects the voice and experiences of young people. The media are reporting that children have no symptoms and that it is mostly older people who are falling ill. As a result, younger people feel very confident that their immune systems can deal with the virus. Reading the news from Italy and Spain, it feels to me that the loss of society’s elders is silently accepted.
另外一个方面，对于老年人。文化上而言，中国是一个对老人极其尊重的国家，所谓家有一老、如有一宝。父母或祖父母的忽然离世，都是令后辈们极其伤感的事情。在中国，许多的老人们都和ta们的子女或孙辈们在一起居住，这大概也是为什么在中国感染都以家庭群发为主。而在我眼里，德国则是一个反应年轻人声音和体验的社会。媒体一边倒的宣传是说大部分都是老年人患病，小孩都没事。于是年轻人们都对自身免疫系统极其自信。从意大利和西班牙针对老年患病人群的治疗策略来看，似乎老年人的离世被社会默许。
In my view, at this very moment it is not so much individual freedoms that matter, but taking care of each other. For Chinese people, family is their “religion”. People will do whatever they can for their own household or family members. Because if there is a home, we always have a place to return to, a place of freeness and safety. That is why Chinese have bought protection masks from all over the world to support their country. Freeness is the freedom in community or network, not of the isolated individual. People cannot find happiness and calm in a state of pure freedom without being grounded anywhere. What people desire is to feel at ease and belonging within a network or group. In that sense, Chinese people practice another style of being in which actions are always based on collective needs, instead of individual needs.
对我而言，这样的境况之下，个体的自由并没那么重要，彼此的关照才是应尽之意。“家”就是中国人的信仰。中国人为了家人和亲朋可以付出任何所有，因为有家就有归处，这个归处象征着“自在”与安宁。这也是为什么全世界华人都要支持ta们的祖国。“自在”和“自由”不一样，自在是在社群里的自由感，这不是原子化的个体的“自由”的概念。当人们尝试着追寻一个漂泊无根的绝对“自由”时，是没办法寻觅到幸福与安宁的。人们，终究都渴望某种归属之中的放松。这个意义上，中国人正在践行着另一种建立满足集体需要的生活方式，而非个人需要。
大年初二的汉街
图片源自media.cnhubei.com
4
有关虚假信息与社交媒体
The proliferation of disinformation and myths about the coronavirus on social media has led the WHO to launch a counter information campaign together with Google and Facebook. Did something similar happen in China? Or did government censors intervene?
Man: In the early stage, there were all kinds of reports about the coronavirus in WeChat, which is the biggest social media channel in China, with almost one billion members. Chinese people were very disturbed to see that local government bodies were holding back information to the public and creating the impression that the situation in Wuhan was under control and that the virus was not contagious. I noticed in early January that friends who worked at hospitals in Wuhan were starting to wear masks. I even saw people wearing masks at a New Years’ concert. The fact that SARS had returned in some form was already doing the rounds on social media after “whistleblower” doctors diagnosed a patient on 30 December and warned friends and colleagues of their findings. This quickly became common knowledge. Back then, even my mother talked with me on the phone about the “rumor” and many sensible people started to prepare themselves and avoided gatherings. It was not until 20th January that central government officials confirmed the risk of human-to-human transmission. Very soon after this the whole city was locked down.
In my experience, Chinese people tend to gather factual information through social media while relaying on networks of trusted family members, relatives, friends and colleagues. “Official” media channels play a less significant role as sources of reliable information.
Information gathered through WeChat networks and groups also underpins the work of our support group. WeChat connects thousands of people (including family members, relatives, friends and colleagues etc.) and integrates all of the functions of Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp, Amazon and Skype in a single service, making communication easy and efficient.
Our grassroots organization operates on the principle of “First-hand contact, first-hand connections, first-hand information”. In other words, by introducing only people that we know and trust, we can ensure that the information shared in the group is reliable. This first-hand principle enables us to gather reliable information more efficiently than news agencies. Because we have friends who are working for hospitals and within government, we are also able to share inside information.
I believe news are being manipulated everywhere in the world in many different ways and it is difficult to summarize this phenomenon for a huge country like China. During the Coronavirus Crisis, I witnessed how WeChat groups and networks acted as a decentralized “Fourth Estate”. The Internet and digitalization are helping the development of Chinese democracy tremendously. People were disappointed official news channels because of the way the initial phase was handled. As a consequence, people place their trust in “opinion leaders” such as the Wuhan-based author FangFang, who writes a public diary about the crisis and shares important insights with the outside world.
Local government has realized that it is impossible to hide anything nowadays. They will have to learn how to cooperate with mass social media, instead of blocking it. This will be a challenge for some conservative and undeveloped regions, but local governments in major cities like Shanghai and Guangzhou are already much more open and transparent to citizens.
武汉的黄昏
5
关于人与自然的可持续
IASS research aims to support broad transformations towards more sustainable societies. Is sustainability an issue for the people in your home country?
高等可持续发展研究所致力于支持全球可持续的转化，那么你们国家的人们也有这方面的考虑吗？
Man: Many of my friends are sharing the videos showing how animals are returning to the cities and wandering on the empty streets, people are woken up by singing birds, calmness has been back to life etc.. I believe they are all kinds of touching moments in such difficult period, reminding us to cherish simple happiness in our life. It is a sudden and sharp pause for the whole society, while it is a kind reminder to reflect our way of being as well.
许多朋友们开始分享那些动物们回到城市里面、在空荡大街上漫步的视频，人们会被婉转的鸟鸣声叫醒，宁静回归到了生活……我相信在这样的艰难时刻里，也有许多动人的瞬间提醒我们去珍视生活中的美好。对整座城市而言，这是一个突然的暂停，同时也是让我们回归当下（临在）的提醒。
There are many phenomena showing to me that people would clearly like to change their behavior patterns following this because of the disaster, but I am not sure how far this will go. Let’s see.
疫情之中有许多现象令我觉察到人们的行为模式可能会发生改变，然而，我并不太清楚会到怎样的程度。咱们慢慢看。
Right now the whole province and all the cities are still processing the emergencies and recovering from this emergency. The focus is still on saving lives and getting life back on the normal life track. There is still so much mourning to be done and grief that needs to be dealt with and so much sadness has to be expressed. All this takes time.
现在整个省和所有的城市都仍然在应急或恢复的状态之中。当前的关注点仍然是抢救生命并恢复正常生活秩序。许多的哀悼都还没来得及开展，许多的哀伤、悲痛需要被表达。而所有这一切都需要时间。
Right now I am supervising a volunteer group which is psychologically supporting citizens who have been traumatized by the crisis. I am experiencing great suffering and sadness with all these volunteers. We have realized that the sadness resonates to each individual, to our community, to our whole society, meanwhile it also resonates with the state of the entire earth.
We are sharing the suffering like our earth is suffering.
如今，我在一个公益心理支持平台担任督导。我也与所有的志愿者们一起经验着这些巨大的创痛与悲伤。我意识到，这些悲伤不仅回荡在人与人之间，也在我们的社区和群体，在我们整个社会，同时也是这个地球的。
我们与这个星球共担着这份痛楚。
What we could learn from the crisis, is to feel the suffering and admit that we are vulnerable, to admit that we need help. It is the compassion from ourselves to others, and also the compassion from human beings to all species in the world, and also the compassion from living beings to the planet.
我们从这场危机中可以学到的，是去感受这份痛楚，同时承认我们的脆弱，去承认我们需要被帮助。这是我们对ta者的同理共情，也是我们对其它物种的同理共情，更是从生物圈延展到整个星球的同理共情。
The vulnerability is now emerging after we have fought for survival almost two months, because it is the endless war with no one and we are all exhausted. In our reflection, we started to realize that the virus is helping us to expose our softness. As human beings, we could cry and be sad when we are vulnerable. We are growing when we are acknowledging and appreciating those vulnerabilities. At some point, we felt save after we cried and we started to allow ourselves to be helped. Because of exposed vulnerability, we are connected and feel safe in group and community.
伴随着将近两个月与疫情的战斗，脆弱性开始凸显，这几乎是一场与未知敌人无穷尽的战争，我们都身心力竭。在不断的反观中，我们开始意识到病毒在帮助我们意识到我们自身的柔软（脆弱）。作为人类，在我们脆弱的时候，我们可以悲伤、可以哭，当我们拥抱、承认这些脆弱之时，即是我们成长之时。在这样的一个时刻，当我们可以哭出来、允许自己被帮助，我们会感受到安全。也因为我们（共同）暴露的脆弱，我们相互联结，我们在社群里感受到归属与安全。
The disaster provided an opportunity to expose our vulnerability and humility.
We are deeply into the mood of sadness and helplessness, just like our earth is feeling. It could be another enlightenment for our global citizens that we aware the happenings and respond to all the challenges in a compassionate way.
灾难给我们一个机会去暴露这个脆弱性，同时保持谦逊。
当我们沉浸于悲伤与无助时，这也是地球的感知。或许，这是一次对世界公民的启蒙，让我们意识到正在发生的，让我们以同理共情的方式对未来的挑战作出响应。
It’s not about the power. It’s not about winning. It’s not about fighting.
It’s about being soft. It’s about being connected. It’s about surrendering to nature as it is.
这无关权力、无关输赢、无关战斗；
这事关柔软、事关联结、事关向自然臣服……
1月26日的江滩公园 图片源自新华社
6
跨文化的学习
What else would you like to say about the coronavirus?
Man: In a recent German-Chinese online dialogue we noted that this crisis, coronavirus would likely bring about change for different countries in different way. Chinese are starting to take responsibility as global citizens and actively participating in volunteer roles to support people and countries around the world. For people in Wuhan, at the early stage when the official declaration on coronavirus was ambiguous and absent, at the same time, while all hospitals were overwhelmed by the patients, all the citizens and staff in the hospitals started to ask for help from the outside, which shows a big change. Because people have learned that we cannot simply rely completely on government to manage everything as before, we have to take the initiative.
最近我们的德中对话中我们提及此次疫情，新冠病毒带给我们不同国家不同的改变。我们的同胞开始负起作为世界公民的责任，积极地参与到支持全世界抗疫志愿行动之中。在武汉，在疫情还未明确、官方的救助行动还未到达时，几乎所有的医院都被增长的病患压得不堪重负，医务人员开始向社会寻求支持与帮助。这次，我们有学习到人们也不能一味地如以往依赖政府，自己也可以负起责任来。
Many Chinese have been waiting for the German government to take swifter action in the early stages of the pandemic. Now many other Chinese and myself appreciate that finally the German government is moving from gently suggesting certain measures to taking stronger and stronger actions. By witnessing this, I have also learned how important it is for decision-makers here to be patient enough until most of citizens have realized the potential danger and would agree with the governmental actions, otherwise government would face strong criticism and opposition.
在疫情的早期，许多华人都在盼望德国政府能够作出更迅速的决定，如今我和许多其他的中国人对于德国政府从早期温和建议到采取越来越严厉的措施感到感激。目睹这一切的发生，我也学习到了，作为决策者，如何保持极大的耐心让大部分民众逐渐意识到危险并同意支持政府的行动，而非（由于强硬决策）使得政府激起民众强烈的谴责和反对。
From my point of view, German society is sacrificing efficiency for societal consensus, whereas Chinese are sacrificing some freedoms for safety. I believe both countries are making their best choices that reflect their own realities and can learn a lot from each other in this crisis.
某种程度上，德国牺牲了一定的效率以达成社会共识，而中国则牺牲了一定的自由度以保证安全。我相信两个国度都基于其自身的现实做尽可能好的选择，这也是我们可以彼此相互学习的部分。
[后记]二月份便开始给IASS全体同事群发邮件，转发英文和德文版第七版新冠肺炎治疗指南，也跟同事们交流中国抗疫的情况，提醒大家多多注意。自己每次群发，心里还是七上八下，毕竟两三百号人。可是，每次想想那句，“早知道有今天，老子到处发”，就狠狠心地点了发送。
事实上，同事们真正上起心来，约莫从默克尔发表全国电视讲话开始，3月18日。
最近联系我谈疫情、寻求帮助和建议的老外多起来，媒体部的Matthias和Sabine也联系我做了个采访。下面是这篇采访的原文，访谈是3月20日进行的，后面改稿经历了些周折，文化的碰撞也不少，但终归慢慢达成了共识，双方都有妥协和让步。这篇稿子也在3月31日终于上线。
疫情期间经历的所有，尤其是人与人面对面沟通的过程，都是极具挑战且重塑自我的时刻。那些无力、困惑、愤怒或是感伤，都在呼应着这世上所有的发生。
上线的时候，这访谈里的许多想法其实已经发生改变了。这瞬息万变和疫情的发展几乎完全同步。
现在，谁说的话，都没谱；所谓的靠谱，几乎都是撞大运。
什么是WorkFace？
WorkFace是一个分布式自治组织的创业者社群(Distributed Autonomous Organization),创立于2012年8月,以“所有人服务所有人,所有人向所有人学习,所有人支持所有人”的三所有理念，致力于在社会场域打造创业生态系统。成为了最具有影响力的创业者社群。
目前在在全球36+个城市建立分舵，目前影响力较大的分舵有上海、苏州、杭州、广州、深圳、京津冀、成都、厦门、福州、重庆、青岛、洛阳、郑州以及在海外的台北、高雄、曼谷、硅谷等。联结超过 100000 名成员，并在更多的地区迅速成长。
Facer说
WorkFace柏林致力于打造面向全世界的交流平台，开展深度访谈、圆桌对话，打造共创会，为德中社会合作创新，尤其是年轻人的创业提供基于教练服务的实验场域和孵化平台。 |
WorkFace柏林基于华人的身份认同与创新性叙事，营造一个信任空间，以海外华人为桥梁，促进德国乃至西方社会与华人世界间的深度理解和沟通。 |
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